Posted - Nov 09 2009: 11:23:00 PMquote:Originally posted by CarsonZiWow.I was captivated by his experience and the description of his awakening.I read the whole site in one sitting.reading this put me in quite a 'state' and I really feel the pull to meditate now.thank you for sharing this.Love,CarsonHey Brother Carson,I saw your other update; I'm very glad to hear the training is going well!And, I'm glad you found the site interesting and helpful. I've only read a handful of Wayne's posts, including his dialog with Adyashanti, about his (Wayne's) enlightenment-related realization and insights. And in general, it seemed 'worth posting about'.

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But I haven't spent a lot of time with the site yet.Wholeheartedly,KirtanmanCanada758 Posts. Posted - Nov 10 2009: 01:00:24 AMHi Kirtanman,My initial reaction to the site you've pointed out was 'There seems to be a newly emerging trend of 'enlightened' people marketing their teachings and books on the internet'.quote:His realization is clearly authentic;My question is, how do you know that he is clearly authentic?I have read some buddhist teachings that say that you cannot tell if someone is enlightened unless you are enlightened yourself. They also say that a true arahant has no desire to publish or broadcast their realization, let alone sell a book about it over the internet.

There is also the basic idea that enlightenment is permanent, it is not a flow between states, nor does it fluctuate, as others have said it does.How can we distinguish between someone who is truly enlightened and someone who is perhaps a very intelligent spiritual marketer-person that only got a taste and is claiming to be enlightened? Or how do you know that the person even had a valid experience?Or better yet, how can we determine that someone is enlightened when the experience of enlightenment that they describe as proof of enlightenment is very similar to psychic experiences by un-enlightened people? (The void, past lives, remote viewing.)Please don't get me wrong. I appreciate learning about the link and will probably have to purchase the book now. And, I would hate to dismiss someone whom may be truly enlightened because of the fact that they are selling books over the internet.But we are not all on that mountain top and sometimes the voice we hear from that mountain top isn't coming from the mountain top at all.

If we don't have the ears for it, we can't tell, and that voice could say anything they'd like. That is the problem with unverifiable thoughts, isn't it? Maybe that's what siddhis are for.:):)TIEdited by - TibetanIce on Nov 10 2009 03:41:47 AMUSA1651 Posts. Posted - Nov 11 2009: 4:40:15 PMHi TI,quote:Precisely. Here is a quote from a certain western spiritual teacher about their enlightenment:quote:-I will try to explain what happened experientially. At the moment of awakening, it was as though I was completely outside who I thought I was. There was a vast, vast, vast emptiness.

In that vast emptiness, in that infinite emptiness, there was the smallest, smallest, smallest point of light you could imagine. And that smallest point of light was a thought, just floating out there. And the thought was: 'I.' And when I turned and looked at the thought, all I had to do was become interested in it, in any way interested, and this little point of light would move closer and closer and closer. It was like moving close to a knothole in a fence - when you get your eye right up to it, you don't see the fence anymore; you see what's on the other side.So as this little point of 'I' came closer, I started to perceive through this point called 'me.' And I found that in that point called 'me' was the whole world.

The whole world was contained within that 'I,' within that little point called 'me.' There wasn't really an I, but an emptiness that could go into and out of that point, in and out of it, and it's like the whole world could flicker on and off, and on and off, and on and off.And then I noticed there were all sorts of other points, points, and I could enter each one of those points, and each one of those points was a different world, a different time, and I was a different person, a totally different manifestation in each one of those points. I could go into each one of them and see a totally different dream of self and a totally different world that was being dreamed as well.-Now, this to me sounds like someone went into the void (which many people here have been to) and experienced the 'I' thought, which, according to Nisargadatta, Ramana and others (including that quote from the Pali about arahants) have said is supposed to dissolve permanently. Then, the points of light are experienced as previous lives, which to me is like experiencing previous reincarnations. So, maybe you can understand my quandry, when I read about experiences like that, and having been to the void myself, and the last time I looked I could have sworn that I wasn't enlightened, then how could this person be enlightened?That's a quote from Adyashanti, as I'm sure you know.

He isn't describing his enlightenment there, he is describing his awakening, as he says. In Adyashanti's language an awakening experience is different from enlightenment.

He describes awakenings as temporary experiences and as glimpses of enlightenment (or enlightenment experiences).Awakening experiences can take different forms, but they always have the experience of oneness in common. He talks about the gradual process by which awakenings become more and more frequent, and lasting, until oneness becomes one's constant state of being. I believe he said that it took 6 years for his initial awakening experiences to become fully integrated in his awareness as a lasting condition.Personally I find Yogani's way of looking at enlightenment as a never-ending process to be very helpful. There are certain steps along the road and it can be useful to be aware of them. The rise of the witness state, ecstatic bliss, peace, divine love, samadhi, oneness (unity), grace, radiance, surrender, benediction etc.But there is really no end to the degree to which the heart can become a channel of divine love flowing into the world.

So what would it mean to say that something is permanent when it is always changing? The symptoms can become permanently established such as ecstasy and unity consciousness, but the process of transformation and illumination is always unfolding.So with defining enlightenment, it is really a question of how we choose to cast the net. In this unfolding process when do we start using the word?

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In the main lessons Yogani talks about constant bliss and constant ecstasy as the 1st and second stages of enlightenment. Here in the forum he has talked about being permanently established in the witness state as another initial stage of enlightenment. So that could be as good a place as any to start. Awakenings (temporary experiences of unity consciousness) can happen either before or after any of these become established and are not necessarily related to them.As Adyashanti said in the same book that you quoted from. People think, 'When I spiritually awaken, when I have union with God, I will enter into a state of constant ecstasy'. This is, of course, a deep misunderstanding of what awakening is.

Adya, The end of your worldLetting go of the idea of enlightenment being an all-or-nothing affair also helps in letting go of the kind of, 'who is and who is not enlightened?' It becomes more a question of how much is someone experiencing (enjoying) the qualities of enlightenment and how much are they, out of love and compassion, sharing those qualities with others.ChristiUSA342 Posts.

Posted - Nov 11 2009: 11:11:10 PMFrom an email exchange I had with Wayne Wirs, after inviting him to the AYP Forum, and his review of this thread; Wayne Wirs wrote:I think you understand why I hesitate to get involved with forums, it is very easy to get into the trap of arguing the inconsequential.All enlightenment is, is realizing that there is no self.Wayne Wirs was just a story. Wayne is a sound. Everything else said about enlightenment, whether an enlightened person has thoughts, or has desires, or shares or sells or lusts, all those are the same thing as whether Jesus walked on water. Just more stories-maybe true, maybe not-but just stories.Ironically, those stories actually hinder and confuse the seeker (as they did Wayne Wirs (ego-Wayne)).

This is a big reason that I am relating my experiences. Showing enlightenment as real, not as some ideal goal.That enlightened people are not gods incarnate, but just normal people who dropped all the BS about themselves.Feel free to post this if you want. Maybe it will help.WayneMy Response:Hi Wayne,Yes, I do understand your hesitation.For me, it's not an issue, simply per where I find myself, at the moment. With no attachment or concern about specific dialog.And, there's no sense of needing to discuss, yet discussing happens, with an easy sense of intending whatever I say, to help point toward where enlightenment can ultimately be found (in experience/knowing; not in the ideas of limited mind).

With the specific words arising as the specific words arise.Wayne Wrote:Everything else said about enlightenment, whether an enlightened person has thoughts, or has desires, or shares or sells or lusts, all those are the same thing as whether Jesus walked on water. Just more stories-maybe true, maybe not-but just stories.Yes; agreed 100%.As you may have noticed, I simply kept drawing Tibetan Ice back to the fact that enlightenment is found in experience, and that my statement concerning your authentic realization was based in my recognition of it, per my own experience. Not anything I have read or heard.My discussion with Tibetan Ice may have the appearance of talking about enlightenment. But, as you may have seen with other discussions. Depending on the person you're talking with, the specific expression may have a normal conversation type of feel to it; in fact, the best ones usually do.Take Care,Kirtanman.I hope this is helpful.Wholeheartedly,KirtanmanEdited by - Kirtanman on Nov 11 2009 11:24:52 PMUSA1651 Posts. Posted - Nov 12 2009: 12:26:10 AMHi Christi,Thank you for your response.:)quote:Originally posted by Christi.That's a quote from Adyashanti, as I'm sure you know. He isn't describing his enlightenment there, he is describing his awakening, as he says.

In Adyashanti's language an awakening experience is different from enlightenment. He describes awakenings as temporary experiences and as glimpses of enlightenment (or enlightenment experiences).Awakening experiences can take different forms, but they always have the experience of oneness in common.

He talks about the gradual process by which awakenings become more and more frequent, and lasting, until oneness becomes one's constant state of being. I believe he said that it took 6 years for his initial awakening experiences to become fully integrated in his awareness as a lasting condition.Yes, but directly before the previous quote, it does say this:quote:Tami Simon: During what you call your 'final awakening,' at the age of thirty-two, you have mentioned in other interviews that part of that experience included seeing your past lives. I realize that this is not something you like to talk about.Adyashanti: Yes, we know each other well enough that you know that, but it looks like you are going to move forward anyway - good for you.Tami Simon: The legend, as you know, is that the Buddha, sitting under the Bodhi Tree, saw his past lives flash before him as part of his awakening. I'd like to know what you saw.It appears to me that within this context, they (Adyashanti and his publisher) are using the term 'awakening' for 'enlightenment'.

They are saying that Buddha was 'awakened' and then within that same breath, posing the same question to Adyashanti, implying the same quality of state. I think this is misleading. Further, there is the mention of 'final awakening', that Adyashanti called it that.That same excerpt came from this link:And then there is this:quote:Adyashanti: Of course, of course. This idea that enlightenment is about people having beatific, silly little smiles on their faces all the time is simply an illusion. I like to counter that with imagining that we are in a modern-day church, and somebody comes in the back door and blows his lid like Jesus did, kicking over the money changers, yelling at the top of his lungs, 'How dare you defile my father's house!' I mean, Jesus was throwing a holy fit, right?

He was upset. He wasn't faking it. He was literally upset. And he was expressing his upset.So can one be upset from a nondivided state?

Of course, you can. Every emotion is available to us. To be awake doesn't mean we have fewer emotions available to us.

Emotion is just a way that existence functions through us. There is a divided form of anger and there is an undivided form of anger.Here, Adyashanti has taken an example of Jesus' behaviour and used that to determine that 'Every emotion is available to an awakened being'. His argument appeals to reason on a very basic level, yet, no person is mentally capable of realizing what Jesus is, so how can we know that Jesus was truly experiencing emotion? Further, who is to say that an enlightened being cannot demonstrate behaviour that may be interepreted as 'emotional' without the corresponding emotions?Adya is assuming that because Jesus' behavior looked like emotional behaviour then it must have been caused by emotion hence Jesus was acting emotionally. He uses this example to conclude that an awakened being experiences emotions. To me, and from what I've read, an enlightened being is not affected by negative emotions such as anger.This really makes me doubt Adyshanti's statement that there is an 'undivided form of anger'.

How can it be if an enlightened person is not bound by anything?quote:As Adyashanti said in the same book that you quoted from. People think, 'When I spiritually awaken, when I have union with God, I will enter into a state of constant ecstasy'.

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This is, of course, a deep misunderstanding of what awakening is. Adya, The end of your worldThat is what Adyashanti said. However, the Pali says this (and Buddha was all about the end of suffering, and isn't the end of suffering called happiness or ecstasy or the like?):quote:Nibbana is described as the highest happiness, the supreme state of bliss. 7 Those who have attained Nibbana live in utter bliss, free from hatred and mental illness amongst those who are hateful and mentally ill. 8 Sukha in Paali denotes both happiness and pleasure. In English happiness denotes more a sense of mental ease while pleasure denotes physical well being.

The Paali word sukha extends to both these aspects and it is certain (as will be shown below) that mental and physical bliss is experienced by one who has attained Nibbana.It is no wonder people believe that they will enter 'a state of constant ecstasy'. It says so in the Pali.

It says so in many Buddhist teachings and religions. Seems to me that Adyashanti is trying to redefine truth. Is he saying that the Pali is misleading people? Adyashanti is a pioneer, bravely forging ahead where no man has gone before in the realm of spiritual interpretation of the theory of oneness or non-duality. Am I wrong?I really don't know what happened but after studying Adyashanti for a few months, buying his books, downloads, meditations, I sort of flip-flopped and started viewing his teachings as a mish-mash of the 200 spiritual books that he previously read. Perhaps I started swinging to the opposite side of the spectrum when I noticed that Eckhart Tolle had coined the term 'End of your world' before the book by the same name came out by Adyashanti.Christi, you said:quote:Letting go of the idea of enlightenment being an all-or-nothing affair also helps in letting go of the kind of, 'who is and who is not enlightened?' Thing.Detach, detach.:)I understand that journey to enlightenment can be a gradual process or it can come in a flash.

However, I still believe that enlightenment has a state of permanency to it. And, like Buddha suggested, don't take anything for granted. Posted - Nov 12 2009: 12:55:12 AMHi TI,quote:Originally posted by TibetanIceAdya is assuming that because Jesus' behavior looked like emotional behaviour then it must have been caused by emotion hence Jesus was acting emotionally. He uses this example to conclude that an awakened being experiences emotions. To me, and from what I've read, an enlightened being is not affected by negative emotions such as anger.Adya is giving an example, in a conversation, which fits the points he's making.He's also said (laughingly):' Hell, I don't even remember what I say; I don't see why anyone else should!'

Posted - Nov 12 2009: 4:08:12 PMHi TI,quote:It appears to me that within this context, they (Adyashanti and his publisher) are using the term 'awakening' for 'enlightenment'.Yes, Adyashanti does sometimes interchange the terms awakening and enlightenment, as he did in his first book 'Emptiness Dancing'. Awakening experiences are experiences of the enlightened state. Enlightenment is the condition of being awake to That which we really are.

We awaken to enlightenment, or more accurately, enlightenment awakens to itself. So I, personally, can forgive Adyashanti for confusing the two terms.

Where does awakening end and enlightenment begin? Where does ecstasy end and bliss begin? Where does grace end and benediction begin? How can the realization of eternity happen in a moment of time? At what point does human language fail completely?quote:They are saying that Buddha was 'awakened' and then within that same breath, posing the same question to Adyashanti, implying the same quality of state.

I think this is misleading.I wouldn’t like to judge.quote:It is no wonder people believe that they will enter 'a state of constant ecstasy'. It says so in the Pali. It says so in many Buddhist teachings and religions. Seems to me that Adyashanti is trying to redefine truth. Is he saying that the Pali is misleading people?Yes, the Pali texts refer to bliss of the body and the bliss of the mind. I believe that the bliss of the body is what we (here at AYP) would call ecstasy, and the bliss of the mind is what we would call bliss.

As Yogani says, with enlightenment, ecstasy and bliss become permanently established. But Adyashanti is talking about awakening and an experience of awakening can happen before ecstasy (the bliss of the body) has even been felt.During an awakening experience, the normal identification with egoic consciousness falls away and the Self is experienced as it really is. It is an experience of the oneness of all things. The mind becomes stilled and silent and many insights arise. It is incredibly blissful and peaceful. I had my first awakening when I was about 20 years old and it completely blew me away (literally, not metaphorically).

It was about 15 years before I was to experience what ecstasy was, and about 3 more years before I experienced whole body ecstasy. It is only recently that whole body ecstasy has become an ongoing aspect of my reality.If Adyashanti said that a permanent state of ecstasy is never a part of the enlightenment process, then I would simply say that he obviously hasn't reached that stage yet, and maybe when he does, he'll change his mind. But I have never heard him say that, so it's a bit hypothetical.One thing we are beginning to see which I believe could be clouding the issue around enlightenment, is a number of people basically saying: “I’m enlightened, and my experience is like this, so all enlightened people must experience this too”. I think this is based on the “top of the mountain” idea of enlightenment. It is the idea that you have either arrived, or you haven’t, and if you have then you know everything there is to know about enlightenment.

Obviously, as the process of transformation expands and deepens beyond the initial stages of awakening, this idea begins to erode.quote:Detach, detach.:)I understand that journey to enlightenment can be a gradual process or it can come in a flash. However, I still believe that enlightenment has a state of permanency to it. And, like Buddha suggested, don't take anything for granted. It is my right to examine, descriminate and question what I am inclined to.Absolutely! Everyone has that right, and it is good to question and investigate. Personally I have found that some aspects of the process of enlightenment come in a flash, and others come gradually. It's a big journey with many layers and depths.

Certainly whole body ecstasy could not come in a flash; it would be too much for the body to bear. Awakening experiences can happen in a flash, but the integration of those experiences into the being takes time. The process of the merging of ecstasy and bliss also takes a long time for the body to adjust to the new levels of energy involved and the implications of the process.Yogani talks about it here:'As for what is next once inner silence and ecstatic conductivity are coming up, it is a long drawn-out joining of these two, played out as much in our daily activity as in our practices. This gives rise to the 'child' of the union, as it were, called 'jivan mukti,' or 'christ consciousness.' This is the end game of yoga, and corresponds to what I call 'outpouring divine love.'

It means we increasingly see the world as our own self and act accordingly - 'doing unto others' in service. That, in turn, accelerates our advancement into unity, which is another word for jivan mukti or christ consciousness.' From:ChristiUSA1651 Posts. Posted - Nov 12 2009: 8:56:14 PMHere's a conversation that Wayne Wirs had with Adyashanti, which may shed some light on all this:.Blog Post by Wayne Wirs - Confirmation With AdyashantiOctober 16, 2009Last week, I went to see Adyashanti who was holding satsangs (talks) in Portland. At the end, during the concluding question and answer portion, I raised my hand and, when called on, approached the microphoneSocial InteractionsI thanked him for devoting his life to helping others even though it must bore the hell out of him (enlightened or not, I’m still a wise ass).There was a kind of nervous laughter as the crowd suspected that I might be a heckler, but then I clarified it by saying, “To most people here, what you say is absolutely fascinating, but to you, it’s just everyday life.

Do you get bored talking about this all the time?”He smiled and replied something along these lines, “No.” (pause). “Sometimes I do, but now I only teach when I want to. I don’t usually talk about this stuff in my day-to-day life, especially with my family.”Confirmation: I feel the same way. Even though enlightenment is a relatively new perspective for me, I’m still “Wayne” –there’s just no ego. I don’t think about enlightenment all the time, nor do I go around preaching it on street corners. To my friends, family and anyone else who knew ego-Wayne, I’ll still appear and act pretty much the same–it’s just that my perspective (and values) have changed since I was ego-Wayne.Conditioned ReactionsI then asked Adyashanti if he still experienced conditioned reactions, specifically, self-consciousness. Then I realized I had to give him a little background–which was not my intention originally–so I plowed on, “This is going to sound cocky as hell, but there it is.

I woke up about two months ago, and I’m still getting used to it. What surprises me most, are my reactions. For example, here we are, in front of about 300 people, and, though I feel no ’self’, I’m surprised I still feel a twinge of self-consciousness. Is this just a conditioned reaction? Does it go away?”He said something along the lines that yes, these are just conditioned reactions, but he doesn’t feel them nearly as much as he used to. He said that his teacher once told him that it takes anywhere from five to 15 years after enlightenment for the mind to settle down.Confirmation: This gave me an immediate sense of relief, as I have been troubled as to why my body still reacts in a very self-centered way (sudden actions that arise due to circumstances: frustration while driving, reaction to an unzipped fly, reactions to people giving me those curious looks (maybe due to the above mentioned fly), etc.). My mind and body just haven’t settled into it yet.Three Levels of ConsciousnessThen the big one, the one that had been confusing me the most.

I asked, “My ‘center’ of awareness seems to shift around a lot. Sometimes I feel this powerful sense of Love and Light pouring through me,” –here he smiled and nodded knowingly. “Other times, I am the Witness, and even other times, I am just ‘here,’ walking, or talking, or thinking–Pure Consciousness.

Is this your experience or does that settle down too?”He replied along the lines, “Yes, there is a flowing,” (referring to himself), “sometimes Love pouring out, sometimes Stillness. This is my experience also. I’m always hesitant to talk about these things though, as I don’t want to give my students something else to cling to.”Confirmation: This was nice to know. The “flowing” is a wonderful feeling.

Additionally, hearing that this is his experience also, lends support to something that has been nagging at me ever since my awakening. I’ll talk about this later though, when the truth of it has “settled” into my brain (understanding comes much easier to me now if I just “relax into the thought” rather than trying to force/figure out a problem).I thanked him, sat down, and then he closed out the satsang. The next day, I attended his six-hour intensive–though I didn’t have any other questions. It was pleasant, and deep, and funny. Of the big three, Adyashanti is definitely the most down-to-earth.I left him a copy of Fading Toward Enlightenment, talked to a few people who had approached me about my experiences, and then headed back to my camp.Source:Edited by - Kirtanman on Nov 12 2009 8:58:27 PMUSA1651 Posts. Posted - Nov 13 2009: 5:46:54 PMHi Kirtanman,quote:quote:-Originally posted by ChristiOne thing we are beginning to see which I believe could be clouding the issue around enlightenment, is a number of people basically saying: “I’m enlightened, and my experience is like this, so all enlightened people must experience this too”. I think this is based on the “top of the mountain” idea of enlightenment.

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It is the idea that you have either arrived, or you haven’t, and if you have then you know everything there is to know about enlightenment. Obviously, as the process of transformation expands and deepens beyond the initial stages of awakening, this idea begins to erode.-Very much agreed; I tried to clarify this, above. But it's tough to do, with words.It's not that hard to do with words. You just say that enlightenment is an ever deepening and ever expanding process.

Easy.The danger of not doing so, is that it could lead someone to what Yogani calls 'The illusion of having arrived'.Someone could think: 'O.K. This is it, I've reached the goal' and give up their spiritual practices.

Then they could be hanging out saying: 'ecstasy has nothing to do with enlightenment' or 'divine love has nothing to do with enlightenment', simply because they stopped their practices at the witness stage: identification of the self with pure awareness (the formless) but still separate from form.Here is an interesting quote from Yogani on the illusion of having arrived:'Enlightenment, the direct realization of who we are, is unassuming and does not proclaim itself, except by compassionate assistance offered for the benefit of everyone. Conversely, where there is the assumption of attainment or of having arrived, actions can be distorted accordingly, leading to a rigid teaching, proselytizing, sectarianism, and a shift in focus from spiritual practices to the one who has supposedly arrived.

It is a pitfall of the mind commonly found on either the side of the teacher, the student, or both.When consciousness is identified with the mind, there will be a great need to proclaim victory over the forces of ignorance. This breeds more ignorance, of course. There can be no enlightenment proclaimed on the level of the mind. The functioning of the mind can only be seen as a symptom of the illumination which comes from within, or the lack of it. We may conclude that an inner flow is occurring or not, but we can never proclaim with accuracy that we have arrived, for that is beyond the province of the mind.By definition, both the cause and the destination of true self-inquiry are beyond the mind, in the abiding inner witness, which never assumes or proclaims anything. It just is.When there is some proclaiming going on, it is wise to ask, “Who is proclaiming?” and then let go in stillness.'

Yogani, Self inquiry, dawn of the witnessChristiUnited Kingdom3594 Posts. Posted - Nov 13 2009: 7:52:32 PMp.s.quote:Kirtanman wrote:And so, on the one hand; enlightenment is just a word; words are no longer primary; actuality is primary.On the other hand, conveying that enlightenment is attainable. Posted - Nov 14 2009: 12:19:15 AMquote:Originally posted by Christip.s.quote:Kirtanman wrote:And so, on the one hand; enlightenment is just a word; words are no longer primary; actuality is primary.On the other hand, conveying that enlightenment is attainable.

Posted - Nov 14 2009: 12:59:08 AMquote:Originally posted by ChristiBy definition, both the cause and the destination of true self-inquiry are beyond the mind, in the abiding inner witness, which never assumes or proclaims anything. It just is.When there is some proclaiming going on, it is wise to ask, “Who is proclaiming?” and then let go in stillness.' Posted - Nov 14 2009: 01:22:11 AMHi Christi and Kirtanman:)Thank you very much for this discussion. I am still here.

I'm carefully preparing my next set of questions and dealing with a strange phenomenon.Towards the end of reading your posts last night, a void opened up in the back of my head level with my eyes and a strange formation of light presented itself. It looks like the total accumulation of all galaxies in a sort of a squashed triangular shape surrounded by an immense void. It is a constant vision, that is, it's not going away.

I see it as I go through my daily activities, even as I sit here now. Then, last night (this morning), I woke up at 5:00 am wide awake. My usual waking time is 7:00 am. So I lay in bed and tried to go back to sleep. I just lay there in bed, kind of watching that strange light galaxy conglomeration for a while and tried to fall back asleep. After I while, I realized my body was sleeping but I wasn't.

It was a surprise. Posted - Nov 14 2009: 06:32:36 AMHi Kirtanman,quote:Thanks for being rigorous with this, Christi; good stuff is coming out of this dialog.You know me K-man, always rigorous! There is too much at stake in terms of human evolution to not be.quote:Originally written by Yogani:Conversely, where there is the assumption of attainment or of having arrived, actions can be distorted accordingly, leading to a rigid teaching, proselytizing, sectarianism, and a shift in focus from spiritual practices to the one who has supposedly arrived. It is a pitfall of the mind commonly found on either the side of the teacher, the student, or both.I thought that was an especially interesting couple of lines.

I had to look up the word proselytizing as I didn't know what it meant.quote:Originally written by Yogani:It is like asking a bird who is yet to grow wings to jump off the top of a building. The bird with fully developed and functioning wings will keep saying to the one with undeveloped wings, “Come on, you can do it. Don’t worry about the wings.” Does this make any sense?

The wings have to come first. Then we can fly.' K-man,How do you know that people who do not yet have the wings to fly with, are not going to follow your advice, and attempt to jump from the nest before they are ready? What's the clean up plan for the kundalini messes that often follow?ChristiEdited by - Christi on Nov 14 2009 06:40:39 AMPage: of 17TopicTopic LockedJump To:AYP Public Forum© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors)This page was generated in 0.72 seconds.Direct DownloadsPreviewAYP BooksEasyLessonsSpiritualAdventure NovelEnlightenment SeriesQuestions & Answers.

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